Their compulsions are different, they have assimilated, and they are influenced by the negative narratives about India pushed by the Deep State and its arms
Good Article providing a perspective. It is also driven by how one has been moulded from a young age. Indian Middle class communities were fierce in the zeal to give the best for their children's education and this middle class went all the way to make sacrifices for the sake of their children. During the growing years, the concept of 'success' was very much templatized and it was not uncommon for people to pass out of schools, do their IIT's and go abroad for their studies or IIM. Then came choosing the life partner, acquiring assets, multiplying them etc. This was the template for 'success' and its measure as portrayed by parents which the kids growing in 1970-2000's at least embodied. Parents in their 60's to 80's even if wanting their children to be with them have accepted the physical distance gracefully because they were the ones to set this template which unfortunately has some flow on effects that include a bit of negative narrative on our country.
The Vedantic interpretations of our dharma are beautiful and malleable that everyone of these interpretations have given their view of relationship between Jivathma and Paramathma with most if not all these interpretations terming 'success' as the final destination of Jiva to assimilate with the Paramathma.
Somewhere between the two views of success, there is a need to identify the correct balance when children are growing so that apart from what is required to lead a comfortable life, they also understand what it takes to living a life of values. This is very much dependent on the family and the mother who is the prime role model for the children. There is more contribution one can expect from the second generation kids living abroad as they are exposed to comfort of matter. Giving them the tools and technologies to read our Dharma is of paramount importance else they would wither like a branch that has fallen off a tree.
sri narayanan, good thoughts. there is a dichotomy. material wealth has been gained, but cultural and civilizational values have been lost, and as you said, the number of elders who live out their lives with no contact with their grandchildren -- such a far cry from the way it used to be in agrarian households -- is a shame. it means that we are getting atomized and deracinated at the very time that the western model of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is also under attack.
Blaming reservations for their lust for better pastures is a pastime of the NRIs. The fact that the 3 to 10% of forward classes getting 50% in theory & 85% in reality of jobs available is notwithstanding. Even from their own logic of merit they should belong to the 50th percentile which is not true, they are top most & evacuated by their own choice, not by any compulsion.
i don't think reservations are as big an issue as some project it to be, except in some cases. tamil brahmins have had a raw deal, for example. (no, i am not one). and they're among the smartest of the lot. on the other hand, social networks matter a lot. if you have friends and relatives abroad, you are far likelier to also go abroad.
Reservation is one trigger point in this decade to go abroad resulting in brain drain.This undemocratic caste based gobbling of scarce resources in the realm of lesser talents is one of the root cause.
it's just one, and i'd say not so major, factor. people at the top end of the spectrum still manage to make it to the IITs and IIMs and AIIMS. it's the middle-level people who end up getting pushed out through reservations or quotas. and there are definitely quotas (informal) in the west too: see how whites are now 'reserving' the top university seats by just canceling the SATs, which asians were acing. also in india, it's not just caste but religious reservations: try getting into st stephens or CMC vellore if you are not of the right religion.
Rajeev, always liked your posts and this one is no exception. Having taken a somewhat similar journey you did (IITB engineering and UCLA MBA but chose to stay on in the good old USA rather than move back to India) I have come to the realization that regardless of where you settle, it’s important to hold on to Santana Dharma because it’s eternal. Just my 2 cents! Keep writing and would love to share a meal/drink/coffee with you when I’m in Bangalore (that’s where you settled in India, right?) next time. Cheers!
thank you, giri, for being a consistent reader over the years! the IIT engineering to top MBA school track gives you visibility into the mentality of the 'elites' in both countries. i agree with you that you must be grounded in the dharma wherever you live. that's what carries the value system. i live in trivandrum, not bangalore, but sure, if you come here :-)
I know this is old thread, but I think the matter at the heart will not get old.
We may rationalize our choices, but in the end we to ask this question to ourselves. Did we achieve what we wanted? And what was that?
I think we did value material success when we started. Mostly, we achieved that.
When I came here, I did not have this question in my mind. Did this move imparted better value system to my kids?
In India, being competitive was imperative. You have to learn how to get in to the bus and get a seat when there is no civilized queue.
My kids can not do that. Many of my friends tell me that they have be one of those "dumb" Americans. But when I see their life decisions in career, relationship business, independent viewpoint, general thinking etc, I think they have a better value system. Sadly, I have not been able to keep them Santana Dharmik as I would like to, but they are better persons then 99%.
I do not why, but they and all of their (mostly Indian) friends are - Oh my God - Democrats. May be it is true that "if you are young and Republican, you do not have heart. If you are old and Democrat, you do ot have Brain"
Well explained. So long as we equate success to going to and settling down in"foreign", we will be oblivious to everything else. No one wants to rock that boat, so we don't examine anything too closely. This is my experience and observation.
i don't think it's a bad idea to emigrate. free movement of people (alongside free movement of capital) is a good thing, but of course rich countries make it VERY DIFFICULT for people from poor countries to go there. if people go abroad and do well, i applaud them, and i am happy to see indian-origin people thriving (i should write more on exactly why they do so, and also the ways in which some of them justify to themselves their sort of 'survivors guilt' about not having given back enough for what they received from their country of origin). i just don't want indians in india to think they will do something for india. indians have to, painfully, pull themselves up by the bootstraps. there are no messiahs who are going to save them.
Succint and thought provoking as always, Rajeevji. A close family member living in the US since 2000 belong to the other group you. mentioned - the ones that socialise largely in Tamil mandrams, Bengali groups etc. Surprisingly, that person is also gaga about Democrats, wonder why. The vax mandate fiasco has opened their eyes a little bit, though.
thanks, karthik. long ago, there was a photo the US consulate circulated widely, of nehru and john kennedy walking in the 'rose garden' of the white house. that gave the impression of a close Democratic connection with india. later, nixon and kissinger screwed up the Republican image in india. and clinton (a charming fellow, though dicey) and obama (just because he's black) gave indians the idea that Democrats are The Good Guys. and then the entire left in india is close to the Democrats, so they good press here too. i guess these are all reasons why indian-americans think they have to be Democrats, tho Democrats canceled the one Hindu in their midst, Tulsi Gabbard (no, she's not indian, but she's hindu).
Sri:
Good Article providing a perspective. It is also driven by how one has been moulded from a young age. Indian Middle class communities were fierce in the zeal to give the best for their children's education and this middle class went all the way to make sacrifices for the sake of their children. During the growing years, the concept of 'success' was very much templatized and it was not uncommon for people to pass out of schools, do their IIT's and go abroad for their studies or IIM. Then came choosing the life partner, acquiring assets, multiplying them etc. This was the template for 'success' and its measure as portrayed by parents which the kids growing in 1970-2000's at least embodied. Parents in their 60's to 80's even if wanting their children to be with them have accepted the physical distance gracefully because they were the ones to set this template which unfortunately has some flow on effects that include a bit of negative narrative on our country.
The Vedantic interpretations of our dharma are beautiful and malleable that everyone of these interpretations have given their view of relationship between Jivathma and Paramathma with most if not all these interpretations terming 'success' as the final destination of Jiva to assimilate with the Paramathma.
Somewhere between the two views of success, there is a need to identify the correct balance when children are growing so that apart from what is required to lead a comfortable life, they also understand what it takes to living a life of values. This is very much dependent on the family and the mother who is the prime role model for the children. There is more contribution one can expect from the second generation kids living abroad as they are exposed to comfort of matter. Giving them the tools and technologies to read our Dharma is of paramount importance else they would wither like a branch that has fallen off a tree.
sri narayanan, good thoughts. there is a dichotomy. material wealth has been gained, but cultural and civilizational values have been lost, and as you said, the number of elders who live out their lives with no contact with their grandchildren -- such a far cry from the way it used to be in agrarian households -- is a shame. it means that we are getting atomized and deracinated at the very time that the western model of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is also under attack.
Blaming reservations for their lust for better pastures is a pastime of the NRIs. The fact that the 3 to 10% of forward classes getting 50% in theory & 85% in reality of jobs available is notwithstanding. Even from their own logic of merit they should belong to the 50th percentile which is not true, they are top most & evacuated by their own choice, not by any compulsion.
i don't think reservations are as big an issue as some project it to be, except in some cases. tamil brahmins have had a raw deal, for example. (no, i am not one). and they're among the smartest of the lot. on the other hand, social networks matter a lot. if you have friends and relatives abroad, you are far likelier to also go abroad.
Reservation is one trigger point in this decade to go abroad resulting in brain drain.This undemocratic caste based gobbling of scarce resources in the realm of lesser talents is one of the root cause.
it's just one, and i'd say not so major, factor. people at the top end of the spectrum still manage to make it to the IITs and IIMs and AIIMS. it's the middle-level people who end up getting pushed out through reservations or quotas. and there are definitely quotas (informal) in the west too: see how whites are now 'reserving' the top university seats by just canceling the SATs, which asians were acing. also in india, it's not just caste but religious reservations: try getting into st stephens or CMC vellore if you are not of the right religion.
Rajeev, always liked your posts and this one is no exception. Having taken a somewhat similar journey you did (IITB engineering and UCLA MBA but chose to stay on in the good old USA rather than move back to India) I have come to the realization that regardless of where you settle, it’s important to hold on to Santana Dharma because it’s eternal. Just my 2 cents! Keep writing and would love to share a meal/drink/coffee with you when I’m in Bangalore (that’s where you settled in India, right?) next time. Cheers!
Giri.
thank you, giri, for being a consistent reader over the years! the IIT engineering to top MBA school track gives you visibility into the mentality of the 'elites' in both countries. i agree with you that you must be grounded in the dharma wherever you live. that's what carries the value system. i live in trivandrum, not bangalore, but sure, if you come here :-)
I know this is old thread, but I think the matter at the heart will not get old.
We may rationalize our choices, but in the end we to ask this question to ourselves. Did we achieve what we wanted? And what was that?
I think we did value material success when we started. Mostly, we achieved that.
When I came here, I did not have this question in my mind. Did this move imparted better value system to my kids?
In India, being competitive was imperative. You have to learn how to get in to the bus and get a seat when there is no civilized queue.
My kids can not do that. Many of my friends tell me that they have be one of those "dumb" Americans. But when I see their life decisions in career, relationship business, independent viewpoint, general thinking etc, I think they have a better value system. Sadly, I have not been able to keep them Santana Dharmik as I would like to, but they are better persons then 99%.
I do not why, but they and all of their (mostly Indian) friends are - Oh my God - Democrats. May be it is true that "if you are young and Republican, you do not have heart. If you are old and Democrat, you do ot have Brain"
Well explained. So long as we equate success to going to and settling down in"foreign", we will be oblivious to everything else. No one wants to rock that boat, so we don't examine anything too closely. This is my experience and observation.
i don't think it's a bad idea to emigrate. free movement of people (alongside free movement of capital) is a good thing, but of course rich countries make it VERY DIFFICULT for people from poor countries to go there. if people go abroad and do well, i applaud them, and i am happy to see indian-origin people thriving (i should write more on exactly why they do so, and also the ways in which some of them justify to themselves their sort of 'survivors guilt' about not having given back enough for what they received from their country of origin). i just don't want indians in india to think they will do something for india. indians have to, painfully, pull themselves up by the bootstraps. there are no messiahs who are going to save them.
Succint and thought provoking as always, Rajeevji. A close family member living in the US since 2000 belong to the other group you. mentioned - the ones that socialise largely in Tamil mandrams, Bengali groups etc. Surprisingly, that person is also gaga about Democrats, wonder why. The vax mandate fiasco has opened their eyes a little bit, though.
thanks, karthik. long ago, there was a photo the US consulate circulated widely, of nehru and john kennedy walking in the 'rose garden' of the white house. that gave the impression of a close Democratic connection with india. later, nixon and kissinger screwed up the Republican image in india. and clinton (a charming fellow, though dicey) and obama (just because he's black) gave indians the idea that Democrats are The Good Guys. and then the entire left in india is close to the Democrats, so they good press here too. i guess these are all reasons why indian-americans think they have to be Democrats, tho Democrats canceled the one Hindu in their midst, Tulsi Gabbard (no, she's not indian, but she's hindu).